WE are men-friends

Welcome! This is a personal conversation blog with men-friends I originally met in Wayne's website. As simple courtesy, I didn't want to use up anymore space in his website (it was only serving my personal quest) so I started this blog.

The purpose of this personal blog is for others to help me become "un-Catholic" and get rid of the baggages of "religion that poisons everything" and become a free loving gay!

The name "You've got a friend" is from James Taylor's song of the same title. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb8koIkoCLs&mode=related&search=

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/james+taylor/youve+got+a+friend_20069226.html


Please feel free to write anything liberating. Together, we shall journey in this world and liberate ourselves and others to love freely and to live in "peace".

I am also interested in meeting good Catholic gays in NYC
and in having a monogamous relationship.

This was Wayne's original post:

Thursday, October 11, 2007
New Book: Youth Say Christian Intolerance of Gays Is a Turn Off
posted by Wayne Besen # 12:45 PM
-->
Majorities of young people in America describe modern-day Christianity as judgmental, hypocritical and anti-gay. What's more, many Christians don't even want to call themselves "Christian" because of the baggage that accompanies the label.

A new book based on research by the California-based research firm The Barna Group found that church attitudes about people in general and gays in particular are driving a negative image of the Christian faith among people ages 16-29.

It is time that moderate Christians disown the Religious Right and tell them to slither back into the cave. Not only is their obnoxious behavior detrimental to gay people, but it also makes Christianity look bigoted and backwards. For every convert these Bible-thumpers win, they turn off 100 people to all religion. Isn't it time for them to repent?

17 Comments:

Benedict XVI nephew is GAY and has a GAY bar in Munich - http://pope-ratz.blogspot.com/ Anyone who'd like to go with me to Munich for holidays, let me know! Benedict XVI and the Opus Dei are the most anti-gay Christians, see the John Paul II Millstone http://www.jp2m.blogspot.com/
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/11/2007 2:50 PM

It's amazing just how spectacularly religion has failed to live up to the standards that it gives lip service to. Even the American Episcopal Church just can't seem to bring itself to stand up with moral force and say, "No, we're not going to reject our gay members under any circumstances, and if that means splitting in two, then so be it." Religion is a failure that has created far more bad than good. It is time for it to take it's place in history's dustbin.
posted by Chris L., at 10/11/2007 3:30 PM

At the very least Wayne the christian right needs to back away from the gay issue in order to keep their evangelizing effort alive, heck the shortfall in the budget of focus on the family should be a wake up call to the organization that maybe demonizing gays is a money loser rather than money maker. Heck I don't expect the christian right to become champions of gay rights overnight but in light of this information I certainly hope they back off and focus on other important things.
posted by judah22, at 10/11/2007 9:13 PM

Chris, you're absolutely right. I'm an avowed atheist and you can't imagine the vile slurs, comments I get from people when they find out. They (mostly socalled christians) tell me that I can't make any moral judgments without a religious belief system in my life. Marx was ahead of his time, it IS the opiate of the people, very insecure, frightened people. Anne Coulter's recent remarks that people should convert to christianity is evidence of the perverse, sick minds that religion fosters and engenders, especially the three major denominations.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 10/12/2007 10:09 AM

It's no surprise that you get "slurs" from religionists when you tell them that you're an atheist. It's a reaction which comes from their deep, nagging insecurities and unrelenting mental dissonance about what they believe. But then again, the weak have always tried to pull down the strong.As for their argument that one can't make moral judgments without religion, one need only look at the actions of religionists to know that such thinking is mere nonsense. Nothing more need be said on such an absurd argument.The fact that they can't simply have their religion without smearing others shows that, on some level, they know they're wrong. But then again, if you were the type to look out your window and think that this all got started due to the actions of a talking snake, perhaps you'd be a little insecure and hostile too.
posted by Chris L., at 10/12/2007 10:21 AM

Robert, NYC, I empathize (and have heard a lot) with what you mean by vile slurs and comments - I am a Catholic gay and my former boyfriend (he moved to another country, I didn't want to leave NY) was a Protestant gay. Imagine what we went through. Benedict calls gays "morally intrinsic evil" while he preside over gay Cardinals and gay Bishops and gay priests. NY Cardinal Egan is gay and have a lawsuit -- see October 22, 2006 of http://jp2m.blogspot.com/ As the book "God is Not Great" says 'Religion poisons everything' .
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/12/2007 3:18 PM

Robert, NYC, I empathize (and have heard a lot) with what you mean by vile slurs and comments - I am a Catholic gay and my former boyfriend (he moved to another country, I didn't want to leave NY) was a Protestant gay. Imagine what we went through. Benedict calls gays "morally intrinsic evil" while he preside over gay Cardinals and gay Bishops and gay priests. NY Cardinal Egan is gay and have a lawsuit -- see October 22, 2006 of http://jp2m.blogspot.com/ As the book "God is Not Great" says 'Religion poisons everything' .
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/12/2007 3:36 PM

Chris and Charles, thank you.

Charles, whatever happened to the Egan lawsuit anyway? Wasn't he outed by a fellow clergyman? I remember reading something in one of the local New York papers about that. I wish we had a Mike Rogers among the clergy who could out all these hypocrites, philanderers and pedophiles at the prelate level, starting with a good house cleaning of the Vatican which I suspect harbors more than anywhere else. I can only imagine what goes on in enclosed orders too.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 10/12/2007 3:53 PM

There are a few REAL Christian churches around. Watch this podcast/video of a great sermon giving powerfully strong support to GLBT people. http://inchatatime.blogspot.com/2007/10/speaking-of-hope.html
posted by Anonymous, at 10/12/2007 10:05 PM

Robert, NYC., the judge who handled the Egan lawsuit has a sister connected with the NY Archidiocese in a land deal and his brother is the president of the Guild of Catholic Lawyers of the Archdiocese of New York...it's now on appeal.

You have a good point about the Vatican harboring all these pedophiles and hypocrites - and the best way to protest is not to buy any religious souvenirs and papal trinkets and stop church donations. (Were you a Catholic before, if I may ask?)

BTW, do you have any favorite spot(s) in NY where you hang out where I could join you sometime? or any suggestions from commentators in Wayne's web is welcome. (You can email me by clicking on my name that will lead you to Blogger)
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/12/2007 11:38 PM

Charles, I was catholic at one time. I use lower case intial cap for "catholic" since I lost respect and belief once my orientation was deemed intrinsically evil by the church. The longer I've lived the less I've believed in a divine entity and for the past five years have come to the realization that I can no longer accept the christian belief system. I'm happier and at peace with myself, more than I have ever been because of it.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 10/13/2007 8:29 AM

Considering all the time, energy and creativity that gay people COULD bring to religious groups that accept them, it's *their* loss Robert.
posted by Anonymous, at 10/13/2007 10:26 AM

Anonymous, thank you.Charles, looks like my earlier statement earlier is coming to fruition. I just learned that a high ranking Vatican monsignor has been suspended after coming out. I'm sure more will follow and the witch hunt will begin from the top down or we'll see more leaving the clergy. Long overdue.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 10/13/2007 2:04 PM

I like Wayne's use of the word "repent" in this article. It's time we turned some of their pet words around on them: Repent, lifestyle, abomination...
posted by Anonymous, at 10/13/2007 2:09 PM

Robert--do you have a link?
posted by Ben in Oakland, at 10/13/2007 3:55 PM

Robert,perhaps you (or anyone) can guide me as to how you became "un-Catholic" and "feel at peace" with it, you said it's been 5 years now? How do you un-do what is part of life? Don't you feel rather ostracized and rejected (and alone without the church?)

When my former boyfriend's father passed away, he had a church funeral and the pastor had some slurs for us. The same thing happened when his mother died. When my father died, he came to my Catholic church and the priest had some slurs for us. When my mother wanted me over for Thanksgiving supper, she could only see me if he came with me. Imagine, the thick atmosphere over dinner.

How do you become un-Catholic? The church is part of us, like our schools; the rites of life are in the church.

But slowly, since the eruption of clergy sex abuse, I've come to believe that the Eucharist is only a "commemoration" and not the "actual flesh of Christ", because if for more than 5,140 priests (not countings other countries)can continually abuse minors BEFORE and AFTER consecrating the body of "GOD" himself, it's impossible that God was in their filthy abusive hands! Unless they are all like Judas who walked and ate with Christ but in the end could sell him for 33 pieces of silver.

AP news on the Vatican monsignor -
http://www.eitb24.com/new/en/B24_70468/life/VATICAN-PRIEST-Vatican-bars-gay-priest-for-anonymous-TV/

His television interview (in Italian) http://www.la7.it/blog/post_dettaglio.asp?idblog=15&id=1065

Thanks, Wayne, for giving us this forum.

So how about we hang out sometimes, anyone?
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/13/2007 7:21 PM

Charles, nyc said...
Robert, Chris L, Ben, Anonymous and everyone, you are all invited to post comments in my new blog http://men-friends.blogspot.com/. I feel guilty using up Wayne's website so I created this new blog for our on-going conversation on these important matters. Waiting for you all! Charles, nyc

Come to http://men-friends.blogspot.com/
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/13/2007 11:17 PM

Ben, hi. If you like, you can email me at robertocucina@earthlink.net and anyone else.

Charles, I just don't feel the need for belief in a deity, least of all the catholic church. It just doesn't interest me any more. No, I do not feel rejected at all, I don't even think about being an outsider, never occurs to me. I just can't see the point in religion at all. I don't need to worry that if I die, I will or won't go to heaven. I can't worry about something that may not exist, and probably doesn't, so what do I care once I'm gone? I've seen no proof of the existence of any divine entity. I have no objection to anyone's belief system, but this one is just not mine. I tend to put my energy into science for answers to questions and reasons I don't understand. Each to his own, live and let live.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 10/14/2007 9:31 AM

Charles-- giving up religion requires that you understand it. "True believer" minus "Atheist" = 1. One religion.

I look at all religions like a particular species of wasp that stings a spider, but paralyzes it only. It then lays its eggs in the spider. The eggs hatch, and the larvae proceeed to eat the still-living spider.

Death is a part of life. we don't need to fear death, though we may not welcome it or like the idea. Carlos Castaneda: "We must always live as if we could see death every time we look over our shoulders." Once you can give up that fear, religion no longer has any relevance.

Your comment about abusive priests is a key to understanding that all religion is just made up. If God sees and knows eveything past, present, and future, then he knows what these priests have done/do/will do. we are told that the priesthood is a gift from God--without that calling, you cannot be a priest. The church has an elaborate process to determine whether one has that gift.

So, either the church's process is bogus, or the calling from God is just made up, or god prefers perverts in the priesthood. Take your pick. In any of these cases, the church's to divine authority must be called into question.

And as Helen bunker Hunt once put it so succinctly, if you start asking questions, where to you stop.
posted by Ben in Oakland, at 10/14/2007 12:02 PM

Charles nyc reply October 14

Richard and Ben, Thanks for your replies in Wayne's website, we'll continue it here because I don't want to monopolize the topic over there. You can post easily in the "comments" and we'll take it from here. Next time, I will reply you in the "comments" section of this blog.

My problem is my parents were very religious. My mom before she passed away (recently) begged me to "convert" and become heterosexual in her dying bed! Her "faith" (like opium) kept her "strong" when she was a widow. I also have met "good priests" who left their countries to become missionaries. Do you see my dilemma? Religion could only be the reason for some rich men to become priests and serve God in another country. (Unless they had homosexual tendencies that they chose to "bury" in the priesthood.

Whenever I brought my mother to Mass, I no longer feel that "divine" presence that they taught us in Catechism, all that magic of the Host turning instantaneously into the flesh and blood of Christ. The thousands of abusive priests prove that God cannot exist in the Mass and the same evil hands that "consecrated" the host.

The Mass is like a Broadway show that people have been addicted to, like opium as you said , and all the "graces" it promises are like the "nice feelings" one come out after watching a movie or a concert. The Devil sure is one hell of a producer and he had a cast of thousands of pedophile priests and John Paul II and Benedict collaborated with him because they kept it under wrap for decades.

But how do we change the huge institutions of churches that condemn us? and let us not forget, most of all, they also influence and control the government policies that affect us, like same-sex marriage, or gay common-law benefits?


Chris L.
I await your replies in the 'comments' section too. I don't want to use up space in Wayne's web for my questions to you. Thanks. Charles

Sometimes, these types of people are so awash in ignorance, so saturated with illogical foolishness on this subject, that I think the best thing to do is to simply ignore them and not focus on them. I am starting to believe that people who say things like, "I disagree with 'the lifestyle'" aren't worth wasting our time on. Of course, the exception is when they try to influence public policy with their idiocy.
posted by Chris L., at 10/17/2007 12:07 PM

Chris L. HOW can we "simply ignore them and not focus on them" when they are the ones in-power who decide our "state of union" and our state of being in government policies (plus their dictum outside-the-church- there is no salvation)?
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/17/2007 1:07 PM

Robert, two days ago, I faxed William Donohue a letter which told him exactly what I think of him. He was on the radio blaming gay people for the actions of his very own Catholic Church in the pedophilia scandal. He's just another mean-spirited, ignorant religionist with the typical below-average intelligence in tow, a typical Irish Catholic drunk. And as for these crazy Arabs, they're so divorced from reality that it's almost not even worth acknowledging them.
posted by Chris L., at 10/17/2007 10:18 AM

Chris L. can you tell me what you faxed Donohue (in my personal blog http://men-friends.blogspot.com/2007/10/we-are-men-friends.html) I'd like to write him too. posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/17/2007 10:54 AM