Benedict XVI's nephew in Munich is GAY!

Benedict XVI's Private Secretary is GAY ...and his nephew is GAY and has a GAY bar in Munich!

St. Paul was GAY!!!!!! He's one of us!

Men-Friends,Happy Thanksgiving and I've got GOOD NEWS for you! I just came from a recent (business) trip in Israel......the GAYS there are HOT! But the greatest discovery I made was "St. Paul was GAY !" from a book I read on the plane, Sins of Scripture, by Bishop John Shelby Spong (imagine a Catholic reading a Protestant book on his "pilgrimage" to the Holy Land! No, I wasn't reading Benedict XVI's books, too depressing and fallible) Bishop Spong has a very long section on "the Bible and Homosexuality" and he proves through his own words in Scripture that St. Paul was GAY. I copy some paragraphs here...at last and after all, the GREATEST GAY on our side is St. Paul! EVERYDAY the Catholic Church and the Protestants read his Epistles in their Mass. St. Paul, the most quoted writer in the Bible is GAY!

Christ said: "Seek and ye shall find". Here I am seeking for 10 GAY (ex)Jesuits and G_d gave me St. Paul instead in my quest. The top 10 GAY Jesuits will eventually appear, I've received emails but these Jesuits are not ready to come out yet and I respect that...all in due time. So, I'll start with St. Paul as the LEADER of GAYS in the Roman CATHOLIC Church! There are more chances that Benedict XVI will listen to me or US GAYS if we speak about St. Paul than the GAY-Jesuits for now.

Benedict XVI, who lives with his GAY Private Secretary, when they say Mass together and read the Epistles of St. Paul everyday should reflect on what Bishop Spong has to say.

To succeed in our cause to have same-sex marriage in New York and in the USA, we need to influence and change the mindset of religious leaders like Benedict XVI and the Protestant pastors - because the politicians who can vote and implement same-sex marriage, including George Bush, will always be influenced by the Pope and their pastors and their "fundamental" religious beliefs.

The Bible and Homosexuality

In Romans Paul described his inner struggle: "I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members" (7:23) Paul's experience was that he followed one law with his mind, another with his body. This sin that he feels "dwells in my members" caused him to proclaim that "nothing good dwells within me, that is my flesh." He went on to say, "I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do." He concludes this interior lament by saying, "Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?" It was a plaintive cry reflecting a longstanding memory. That plea ultimately fades into an acclamation when he asserts that he has been given victory over the affliction. "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord, he says (Rom. 7:18-19, 24-25). Paul culminates this section by stating that he is now persuaded that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (8:39), not even our "nakedness," He adds in a revealing choice of words in verse 35. It is a remarkable portrait of a remarkable man. Perhaps what is even more unusual is that the words of Paul are still quoted today to condemn the homosexuality that Paul surely knew was his own hidden secret.

Yes, I am convinced that Paul of Tarsus was a gay man, deeply repressed, self-loathing, rigid in denial, bound by the law that he hoped could keep this thing, that he judged to be so unacceptable, totally under control, a control so profound that even Paul did not have to face this fact about himself. But repression kills. It kills the repressed one and sometimes the defensive anger found in the repressed one also kills those who challenge, threaten or live out the thing that this repressed person so deeply fears.

Much of the persecution of gay and lesbian people both within the church and in the broader society has been carried out by self-rejecting deeply closeted homosexual people. Frequently homophobic but homosexual clergy and bishops, together with their most loyal lay followers, have wrapped their externalized rage, their rejecting and sometimes killing fury, inside the security of some authoritative system. They quote either a hierarchy that claims infallibility or a sacred source from scripture that people have said is inerrant. That is how fanaticism works. That is certainly what is revealed in the Pauline tirade recorded in Romans 1 - a frightened gay man condemning other gay people so that he can keep his own homosexuality inside the rigid discipline of his faith. (Pages 139-140 Bold emphasis mine)

JFK

Today is the anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy. The person who sat beside me in the plane to Israel told me that there is a book about one of JFK's best and lifelong friends who was always with him wherever he went...was GAY. The book tried to prove that JFK too was GAY...(Marilyn Monroe and Jackie O must be turning in their graves) next time will quote from the book and post it here!



Happy Thanksgiving, men-friends!

You've got a friend, Charles



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Links:

Benedict's GAY Secretary - German Georg

Benedict XVI-God's Rottweiler - PROTEST Benedict XVI visit in New York April 2008

Papal clone of John Paul II

Pope Benedict XVI: the worst anti-gay religious leader

Benedict's GAY Secretary - German Georg

Benedict XVI-God's Rottweiler

Papal clone of John Paul II

The Catholic Church's global influence, meanwhile, shouldn't be underestimated, Sinnett said. The United Nations grants the Vatican status as a Non-member State Permanent Observer, rather than treating it as a nongovernmental organization.

"That means it has greater influence on all countries," Sinnett said. "When they use that power to interfere in the politics of another sovereign country, that is incredible."

Pope Benedict XVI’s strong stance against homosexuality makes him a dangerous threat to gay causes across the world, gay activists and religious experts said.

Blessed bigotry: Pope Benedict XVI is Anti-Gay Person of the Year

God’s rottweiler’ actively pursues political agenda against gay marriage, priests

EDITORS’ NOTE:As 2005 draws to a close, many media outlets will announce their selections for person of the year. In past years, Blade editors have selected a Story of the Year instead.

This year, the Story of the Year was, in our view, the extraordinary efforts of one individual to not only put a halt to the acceptance of gay people legally and within the mainstream culture, but to roll back such acceptance to an earlier, less tolerant and more discriminatory time.

Presiding over what some describe as the "strongest bully pulpit in the world," Pope Benedict XVI, just eight months into his tenure, has unilaterally targeted gays as moral threats to society.
From banning gay priests to publicly lobbying against legal recognition for gay couples in Spain and Italy, Pope Benedict XVI has aggressively lobbied against gay rights across the globe.

"His rhetoric is obscene. He wants gays clearly taken care of — it's almost like the Final Solution," said Kara Speltz, a Catholic lesbian activist for Soulforce, an organization dedicated to ending anti-gay discrimination within all religions.

For 20 years, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger served under Pope John Paul II before being elected the 265th pope on April 19.

During that tenure, Ratzinger authored some of the Vatican's most anti-gay rhetoric, including a 1986 Vatican letter calling homosexuality "an intrinsic moral evil" and a 2003 battle plan instructing Catholic politicians to oppose gay marriage and gay adoptions.

Dubbed "God's rottweiler" and "the enforcer" long before taking the helm of the church that boasts a billion members worldwide, Benedict's fervent approach to gay and other social issues is an intentional one meant to influence public policy, according to Chester Gillis, chair of the theology department at Georgetown University.

"He knows very well the kind of claims he makes have political implications. He intends for them to have political implications," Gillis said. "He wants to influence public policy in numerous places in the world and hopefully sway the powers that be to his side, especially on so-called social issues."

Pope has 'ear of the world'Under John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger served as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the office once known as the Holy Inquisition. In that role, his writings were mostly circumscribed to Catholics and internal discourse within the church, Gillis said.

But now as pope, his words aren't just read by bishops but are heard throughout the world, giving Benedict enormous credibility when it comes to political influence, Gillis said.

"It's the strongest bully pulpit in the world," Gillis said. "What he says is noted by everyone.

Everyone may not agree or follow what he says, but clearly he has the ear of the world — and that's a very privileged position."

Benedict's most recent anti-gay action to gain worldwide attention was the Vatican's "Instruction concerning the criteria for the discernment of vocations with regard to persons with homosexual tendencies in view of their admission to the seminary and to Holy Orders," released Nov. 29. The document essentially bans gay priests.

The official "Instruction," from the Congregation for Catholic Education, stated, "One cannot ignore the negative consequences that can stem from the ordination of people with deeply-rooted homosexual tendencies."

The "Instruction" also said men "who practice homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called 'gay culture' cannot be admitted to seminaries." The only exception would be for those with a "transitory problem" that had been overcome for at least three years."

In the United States, gay rights groups including the Human Rights Campaign and the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force publicly challenged the ban and urged gay Catholics and their allies to speak out against it to local priests and bishops.

On Dec. 14, a group of gay Italian clergy posted an open letter to the Vatican on the website of the Italian news agency Adista, stating they felt like the Catholic Church's "unloved and unwanted children," the Associated Press reported.

Adista, which leaked the document on the gay priest ban last month, said 39 priests, 26 diocesans and 13 more members of various religious orders had signed the letter. But the text reproduced on the website did not include the signatures or list their names, the AP reported.
"We don't have more problems living chastely than heterosexuals do because homosexuality is not a synonym of incontinence, nor of uncontrollable urges," the letter states.

"We are not sick with sex and our homosexual tendency has not damaged our psychic health. … We are Catholic priests … with homosexual tendencies, and that fact has not stopped us from being good priests."

In November 2002, in the midst of the church sex abuse crisis, the Vatican press office announced that the Congregation for Catholic Education was drafting guidelines for accepting candidates for the priesthood that would address the question of whether gays should be barred. However, the document reportedly had been in the works well before then.

Gay Catholics and others have criticized the Vatican for blaming gay priests for the child sex abuse scandal, which they argued had nothing to do with homosexuality.

"This is a scapegoat scheme masquerading as Vatican decree," HRC President Joe Solmonese said in a statement. "What is being released today is a decree serving as a diversion that neither keeps children safe nor holds criminals responsible."

Soulforce's Speltz said Benedict is simply seeking to dissuade independent thought among Catholics and church leadership.

"He's trying to create 'Stepford Priests,'" she said. "And if any heterosexual Catholic thinks this is a good thing, they're living in an illusion."

Fighting gay marriageThe Vatican's losing fight against legalizing gay marriage in Spain came just weeks after Ratzinger became Pope Benedict XVI. The Spanish Parliament legalized same-sex marriage June 30. Same-sex marriage also is legal in Canada, the Netherlands and Belgium.

After the vote, the Catholic Church denounced the move as "unjust" and a threat to families.

Sam Sinnett, president of the gay Catholic organization Dignity USA, said it was not the people supporting Spain's public policy who had it wrong when the measure was approved, but rather the church's hierarchy, which is out of step with the times.

"Their consciences are misinformed," Sinnett said in May. "They need to learn about social and medical sciences [about homosexuality] and incorporate them into theology."

The Catholic Church's global influence, meanwhile, shouldn't be underestimated, Sinnett said. The United Nations grants the Vatican status as a Non-member State Permanent Observer, rather than treating it as a nongovernmental organization.

"That means it has greater influence on all countries," Sinnett said. "When they use that power to interfere in the politics of another sovereign country, that is incredible."

Mel White, founder of Soulforce, said this summer that Benedict and the Vatican's response to Spain's politics is indicative of the "Dark Ages mentality" of the Roman Catholic Church's leadership.

"They have gone from cardinals sitting in Vatican City having bad ideas to spreading these bad ideas to the world. The Vatican is now superimposing its theology on everybody," White said. "It has too much power to be considered anything but an enemy."

The Vatican has also been long criticized for opposing condom use in all circumstances. The policy has been blamed by many AIDS experts for contributing to the spread of the virus in many developing countries with large Roman Catholic populations.

Homosexuality in History: A Partially Annotated Bibliography

Homosexuality in History:A Partially Annotated Bibliography Version

© Paul Halsall
Last Major Update, December 1998 Last Additions, Sept 7, 2000
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gayhistbib.html

This bibliography is arranged according to subject matter. Although it originated (in 1989) in a bibliography of medieval homosexuality, and is most complete for that period, it now addresses the history of homosexuality in all periods. It is also now up to date. A few items appear more than once when they fit more than one category. Most of the annotations are mine, but some are from the bibliographies whence came the reference.

There has been an outpouring of scholarship on lesbian and gay history in the past ten years, and much more is in the pipeline. Any printed bibliography will date quickly, so if you are undertaking a research project, make sure also to search online databases. The library of the University of California System, available at http://www.melvyl.ucop.edu/ is especially useful.

This bibliography is extensive but not comprehensive. For further research consult the bibliographies of the newer specialist books in each area of interest. The most important secondary works, in my opinion, are given in bold text. These should be consulted first.
Additions

I am willing to make addition to this list. If you have suggestions, send them to:
halsall@fordham.edu

It is very important that publication information is included - full name of author, full title, place of publication, publisher, date.

If you have a more extended bibliography for a particular period or issue, I would also be willing to include that. Once again if you send it to me, please make sure it conforms (more or less) to Chicago Manuel of Style/Turabian guidelines.

Organization

I: Bibliographical Resources

II: History of Homosexuality - General Works
A: Theory
B: History
C: Readers

III: Antiquity
A: Sources
Ancient Near East
Greek
Roman

B. Works
General Antiquity
Ancient Near East
Greek
Roman

IV: The Middle Ages

A: Sources

B: Commentaries and Articles on the Above and Other Source Material
a) General
b) Chaucer
c) Dante
d) The Issue of "Friendship"

C: History of Sexuality & Homosexuality

D: Christian Attitudes to Homosexuality

E: Local Studies
a) Italy
b) France
c) Spanish Jewry
d) Byzantium
e) Medieval Islam
f) Elsewhere

F: The Middle Ages - Sexuality and Law
a) Church Law
b) Civil and Secular Law

G: Homosexual Individuals

H: Other Sexuality/Gender Issues
a) Homosexuality, Heresy and Witchcraft
b) Homosexuality, Leprosy and Sickness
c) Paedophilia
d) Bestiality
e) Transvestism

V: Early Modern Homosexuality - 1500-1800
A: General
B: Britain
C: France
D: Spain/Iberia
E: Netherlands
F: Italy
G: Other European
H: Colonial Americas

VI: Modern Western Homosexuality 1750-1980
A: General
B: Britain
C: France
D: Spain/Iberia
E: Germany/Austria
F: The Gay Holocaust
G: The Netherlands
H: Other European Countries
I: North America: Pre "Movement"
J: North America: Post "Movement"
K: Australia and New Zealand

VII: History of Homosexuality after AIDS
A: General
B: Anti-Gay: Criticism of Gay Male Culture by Gay Writers

VIII: Homosexual Individuals - After 1750

IX: Anthropological and Sociological Works
A: General
B: North American Native Cultures
C: Pacific Cultures
D: African Cultures
E: Other

X: Lesbians
A: General
B: Ancient and Medieval
C: Modern - Pre-"Movement"
D: Modern - Post "Movement"

XI: Homosexuality Outside Europe, Anglo/French North America, and Australiza/NZ
A: General
B: China
C: Japan
D: South Asia
E: Latin America
F: Middle East
G: Africa
H: Other

The Jesuit-GAY who defied Pope Benedict XVI

The man who defied a future pope



Author and priest John McNeill refused to follow order from then Cardinal Ratzinger to stop gay ministry

John McNeill website: http://www.johnjmcneill.com/

Religion and homosexuality have always been a controversial combination. As touchy as the topic is today, it was almost taboo 30 years ago. But that didn’t stop John J. McNeill from writing the book “The Church and the Homosexual” back in 1976.

McNeill, a gay psychotherapist, theologian, teacher, scholar and ordained Catholic priest, has been a groundbreaker when it comes to the gay community and religion. The Hollywood, Fla. resident will speak at Stonewall Library & Archives on May 24.

After fighting in World War II, McNeill went to school and entered the Society of Jesus, a Jesuit order, in 1948. He then undertook a ministry of gay and lesbian Catholics. He became an ordained priest in 1959. McNeill then went on to earn his doctorate in philosophy in 1964.

McNeill started to write a series of articles on religion for his church newsletter. In 1976, they were compiled and published as the book “The Church and the Homosexual.”

“It was the first book by a theologian to challenge religion,” McNeill says. “It was the first book to call gay love good and holy.”

The book has gone on to get published in five languages.

As expected, the book stirred up trouble in the religious community. A year after the book was published, McNeill received an order from the Vatican’s “Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith” under Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who is now Pope Benedict XVI. The church wanted McNeill to be silent in the media.

“I observed [the order] for nine years,” he explains. “I was hoping the church would change its mind.”

Privately, he still provided ministry to gays and lesbians and led workshops and retreats.
In 1988, he received another order from Cardinal Ratzinger. This one told him to give up all ministry to the gay and lesbian community.

McNeill refused.

“They pushed me,” he says.

He would not back down and observe the order.

“I knew God was using me to speak to others,” he says.

The Vatican then expelled McNeill from the Society of Jesus. The reason given was that he was challenging the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church on the issue of homosexuality and refusing to give up his ministry and psychotherapy practice to gay men and lesbians.

In addition to touring the country and speaking out on his first book, McNeill also co-founded the New York chapter of Dignity, the organization for gay, lesbian and transgender Catholics. That group, in turn, helped start the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force.

He also kept busy writing his next two books, “Taking a Chance on God: Liberating Theology for Gays, Lesbians, Their Lovers, Friends and Families” and “Freedom, Glorious Freedom: The Spiritual Journey to the Fullness of Life for Gays, Lesbians and Everybody Else.”

The New York native moved to Hollywood, Fla., nine years ago with his partner of 41 years, Charles Chiarelli. The couple attend church together every week at the Sunshine Cathedral in Fort Lauderdale.

The 81-year-old has not slowed down at all. He has been working on his latest book, “Sex as God Intended It.” It will be available in July.

“It’s about human sexuality,” McNeill says. “It’s about how God intended humans to use sexuality as play.”

He was recently honored by the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force at Winter Party. He received a lifetime achievement award that stated, “Bringing the understanding to the world that to be gay is a gift from God.”

Currently, he is also producing a documentary on his life and work called “Uncommon Jesuit.” McNeill plans on showing a trailer of the film at Stonewall Library when he goes there to speak next week.

He continues to lead sermons and will lead his next at Dignity’s international meeting in Texas in July.

“God has used me as an instrument for all GLBT people,” he says. “God loves them as they are.”

By Sheri Elfman Friday, May 18, 2007

http://www.expressgaynews.com/2007/5-18/arts/feature/3719.cfm

David Geffen the Billionnaire GAY

.
David Geffen, the richest person in the entertainment industry, is GAY!







.
GAY Personal Life .

David Geffen, who is openly gay, was the subject of a persistent but false 1990s rumor that he had married actor Keanu Reeves. [5]

According to Forbes ("The 400 Richest Americans of 2004") and other sources, Geffen has pledged to give whatever money he makes from now on to charity, although he has not specified which charities or the manner of his giving. In 2002, he announced a $200 million unrestricted endowment for the UCLA Medical School. The School thereafter was named 'David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA'. Geffen's donation is the largest donation ever made to a medical school in the United States.[6]

Geffen's Malibu home on the Pacific Coast Highway has been a battlefront in an ongoing struggle between property owners and beachgoers over access to public beaches in front of private residences. In 2002, Geffen sued to block access to the public beach in front of his home. His publicly stated concern was safety. In 2005, facing a rising tide of anger, Geffen relented and allowed access through a non-profit group. Garry Trudeau parodied this dispute in his daily comic strip Doonesbury.

Geffen has an estimated worth of $6 billion, making him the richest person in the entertainment industry.

Geffen owns the Malibu Beach Inn, Malibu, CA


David Geffen (born February 21, 1943) is an American record executive, film producer, theatrical producer, philanthropist. Geffen is noted for creating Asylum Records in 1970 (which merged with Elektra Records in 1972 to form Elektra/Asylum Records), and Geffen Records in 1980, along with his later role as one of the three founders of Dreamworks SKG in 1994.

Born into a European-Jewish family in Brooklyn, New York, David Geffen's father, Abraham Geffen, is of Polish ancestry and his mother Batya Volovskaya is of Ukrainian ancestry. Both were immigrants from Europe who met in the Palestine-il and then moved to Brooklyn. Geffen graduated from New Utrecht High School in Brooklyn, then attended the University of Texas at Austin but soon dropped out. His mother owned a clothing store, Chic Corsets By Geffen, in Borough Park, Brooklyn. David's older brother Mitchell Geffen was an attorney who attended UCLA Law School and later settled in Encino, California. (Mitchell Geffen was the father of two daughters, who are David's closest surviving relatives.)

Geffen began his entertainment career in the mailroom at the William Morris Agency, where he quickly became an agent. In order to obtain the WMA job, he had to show proof of graduating college. Geffen forged a letter and submitted it to WMA. His colleagues in the mailroom included Barry Diller and Elliot Roberts, who later became David Geffen's partner in a management company. He was a hard worker, and spent his vacation time working in the mailroom of the Beverly Hills office of the WMA. He left William Morris to become a personal manager and was immediately successful with Laura Nyro and Crosby, Stills and Nash. In the process of looking for a record deal for young Jackson Browne, Ahmet Ertegün suggested that Geffen start his own record label.

Asylum Records

Geffen founded Asylum Records in 1970, which signed artists such as Jackson Browne, The Eagles, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, Linda Ronstadt and J.D. Souther. Asylum was acquired by Warner Communications and merged with Elektra Records in 1972 to become Elektra/Asylum Records. Geffen remained in charge until 1975, when he went to work as Vice Chairman of Warner Brothers film studios. He then retired and was soon informed (erroneously) that he had a life-threatening illness. During his retirement period he spent a short time teaching business studies at Yale University. In 1980 a new medical diagnosis revealed the error in the original diagnosis and Geffen was given a clean bill of health, whereupon he decided to return to working in the entertainment industry.

Geffen Records

In 1980, he founded Geffen Records. The Geffen label's meteoric rise to prominence within the year proved a bittersweet success. The December release of John Lennon's album Double Fantasy seems an impressive feat for a new label, but at the time Lennon stated that Geffen was the only one with enough confidence in him to agree to a deal without hearing the record first. An alternate view is that Geffen was the only label head to pay attention to Lennon's wife-partner Yoko Ono. In December 1980 Lennon was fatally shot and Double Fantasy became a massive seller. Over the years Geffen Records/DGC has become well known as a label, releasing works by the likes of Asia with Steve Howe and John Wetton, Cher, Sonic Youth, Aerosmith, XTC, Peter Gabriel, Lone Justice, Blink-182, Guns N' Roses, Pat Metheny, Nirvana, Neil Young, and Weezer

The label was sold to MCA in 1990, and today is part of the Interscope-Geffen-A&M division of MCA's successor, Universal Music Group. The sale made millionaires out of several longtime employees including the A&R troika of Jon Kalodner, Gary Gersh and Tom Zutaut.

Geffen Film/DreamworksSKG

Through the Geffen Film Company, David Geffen produced dark-tinged comedies such as (the 1986 version of) Little Shop of Horrors, Risky Business and Beetlejuice. Geffen was the Broadway backer for the musicals Dreamgirls and Cats. In 1994, Geffen co-founded the DreamWorks SKG studio with Steven Spielberg and Jeffrey Katzenberg.

Geffen is legendary for being outspoken about several issues, particularly on music copyrights. When interviewed about the licensing deal between UMG and Microsoft Zune, Geffen revealed he feels all owners of portable media players are guilty of copyright infringement. "Each of these devices is used to store unpaid-for material. This way, on top of the material people do pay for, the record companies are getting paid on the devices storing the copied music."[1]

Politics

Geffen has developed a reputation as a prominent left wing philanthropist for his publicized support of medical research, AIDS organizations, the arts and theatre. He was an early financial supporter of President Bill Clinton. In 2001 he had a falling out with the former President over Clinton's decision to not pardon Leonard Peltier, on whose behalf he had lobbied the President.[2]

Geffen is currently supporting Barack Obama for President and raised $1.3 million for Obama in a star-studded Beverly Hills fund raiser. On 21 February 2007, in an interview with Maureen Dowd of the New York Times, Geffen described Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton in unflattering terms: "Everybody in politics lies, but they do it with such ease, it's troubling." He said that Hillary Clinton was "incredibly polarizing" and described Bill Clinton as "reckless" and cast doubt on those who say he has become a different person since leaving office.[3][4]

Art collection

Geffen is a keen collector of American artists' work, including Jackson Pollock, Mark Rothko and Willem de Kooning. According to the chief curator at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Los Angeles, Paul Schimmel: "There's no collection that has a better representation of post-war American art than David Geffen's."[8]

In October 2006, Geffen sold two paintings by Jasper Johns and a De Kooning from his collection for a combined sum of $143.5m. On November 3, 2006, the New York Times reported that Geffen had sold Pollock's 1948 painting No. 5, 1948 from his collection for $140m (£73.35m) to Mexican financier David Martinez. Martinez is the founder of London-based Fintech Advisory Ltd, a financial house that specializes in buying Third World debt. The sale made No. 5, 1948 the most expensive painting ever sold (outstripping the $134m paid in October 2006 for Gustav Klimt's portrait Portrait of Adele Bloch-Bauer I by cosmetics heir Ronald Lauder).

Personal Life

David Geffen is also the subject of several books, most recently The Operator: David Geffen Builds, Buys, and Sells the New Hollywood (2001) by Thomas R. King, who initially had Geffen's cooperation, but later did not. An earlier biography was The Rise and Rise of David Geffen (1997) by Stephen Singular. Geffen is also a featured character in the books "Mansion On The Hill" by Fred Goodman and "Hotel California" by Barney Hoskyns as well as several books about Michael Ovitz.

Geffen can be heard on Barbra Streisand’s The Broadway Album. The track "Putting It Together" features Geffen, Sydney Pollack, and Ken Sylk portraying the voices of record company executives talking to Barbra.[7]

External links
David Geffen at the Internet Movie Database
Forbes.com: Forbes World's Richest People
Is David Geffen gearing up to buy the LA Times?
David Geffen at All Music Guide



Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Geffen"

New York Jesuit Provincial supports GAY priests

Who we need is a "combination" of gays who are wealthy, famous, religious and respectable in society who will stand up for gays and secure a place for us, like a combination of David Geffen and the Rev. Gerald J. Chojnacki. A united front of these two men combined, a Billionnaire and a Society, would be a sure thing that will shut down the big religious institution pope Ratz (and William Donohue), and bring ALL religious kooks to their knees!

For those who do not know Fr. Chojnacki here is an excerpt from the NY Times (now owned by the Opus Dei and the Jews combined!)

The provincial of the New York province of Jesuits, the Rev. Gerald J. Chojnacki, also sent a letter to his priests on Monday denouncing any move to exclude homosexuals.

"We know that God does not discriminate," Father Chojnacki wrote. "We know that gay men who have responded to the call have served the church well as priests and religious - and so why would we be asked to discriminate based on orientation alone against those whom God has called and invited?"


New York Times

Americans Plan Rome Trip Over Ban on Gay Priests

Responding to reports that the Vatican may be close to releasing a directive to exclude most gay candidates from entering the priesthood, leaders of Roman Catholic men's religious orders in the United States are planning to travel to Rome to voice their objections in person.

The trip is one of the steps by leaders of Catholic religious orders to try to reassure priests and seminarians who have been rattled by news of a possible Vatican ban on the ordination of gay men.

Word of the trip, which has not been scheduled, was in an internal letter sent on Monday to leaders of religious orders from the Conference of Major Superiors of Men, the key American coordinating body for more than 250 leaders of Catholic religious orders, like the Franciscans, the Dominicans and the Jesuits. The letter was provided to The New York Times by a member of a religious order who said he was pleased by the superiors' actions.

In addition, at least two leaders of Jesuit provinces have written to their priests and seminarians reassuring them that their sexual orientation is not an issue as long as they remain celibate and chaste.

"We're not going to push anybody overboard," said the Rev. John Whitney, head of the Oregon province of Jesuits, which includes 254 men in five Northwestern states.

The Vatican has not even released a document on the issue, which has been under discussion for more than 10 years. Several news outlets, including The Times, reported last week that Vatican officials had said it would most likely be released soon, but no Vatican directive is certain until it is formally promulgated.

Still, several religious superiors said on Thursday that even the anticipation that the church could exclude men from the priesthood because of their sexual orientation had prompted an outpouring of fear and concern among priests - gays and heterosexuals alike. The superiors said their goal was to communicate to their men that they understood the impact that such a directive could have, and to convey that to the Vatican in hopes they could have an impact on the document's contents.

"This is an anxious moment; it creates difficult issues for people," said the Rev. Paul Lininger, executive director of the Conference of Major Superiors of Men, who signed the letter to his colleagues and spoke by telephone. "But we want to be able to say to our men that we will be able to talk to various types of parties, and when the time comes we will communicate back to you."

Father Lininger said the letter was supposed to remain private, "because we don't want to inflame situations, but we needed to respond."

That the leaders of religious orders would step forward is not entirely surprising, said R. Scott Appleby, a historian of Catholicism at the University of Notre Dame.

"Historically the superiors of religious orders have been more independent of the hierarchy," he said. "They are relatively autonomous and responsible for their own company of priests and brothers, so they're more accustomed to looking out for their own."

Some Catholics have said they would welcome the ban because they attribute the sexual abuse scandal to gay priests who preyed on young men.

But Msgr. Francis Maniscalco, spokesman for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, said the Vatican began examining whether to ordain gays long before the abuse scandal broke in 2002, and not because of pedophilia.

"The church is not saying anything like that," Monsignor Maniscalco said. "Pedophilia is its own psychosexual illness, and has its own kind of syndrome. This is looking at another issue, which is the training for celibacy and the ability to live a celibate life. We live in an age in which people are told to express themselves, in which the gay rights movement says to come to grips with your orientation and to live it. And in that environment, there can be confusion, even in seminaries."

The provincial of the New York province of Jesuits, the Rev. Gerald J. Chojnacki, also sent a letter to his priests on Monday denouncing any move to exclude homosexuals.

"We know that God does not discriminate," Father Chojnacki wrote. "We know that gay men who have responded to the call have served the church well as priests and religious - and so why would we be asked to discriminate based on orientation alone against those whom God has called and invited?"

He wrote that he had participated in the funerals of "some very fine and distinguished Jesuits" who were also gay men. "I find it insulting to demean their memory and their years of service by even hinting that they were unfit for priesthood because of their sexual orientation," wrote Father Chojnacki, who leads one of the largest Jesuit provinces in the country, with 437 men.

This letter was addressed to "Brothers and Friends in the Lord," and has been circulated even outside the New York Jesuit province by priests encouraged by its message. One such priest shared it with The Times.

Father Chojnacki did not respond to a request for an interview. A spokesman for the New York province, Peter Feuerherd, said the letter had been directed to New York Jesuits "and was intended to address their concerns."

About 15,000 priests belong to religious orders, approximately one-third of those serving in the United States. The other two-thirds belong to dioceses, whose local leaders are bishops. Religious orders also include brothers, who are not ordained as members of the clergy.

Religious order priests serve in many capacities: teachers and professors, missionaries and professionals in many fields and in parishes. There are also contemplative priests and brothers, who devote themselves primarily to prayer.

Many religious orders, like many diocesan seminaries, say their admissions policies do not discriminate against candidates on the basis of their sexual orientation.

Said Father Whitney, the Oregon provincial, "We continue to go by the standard we have always gone by, which is that our orientation is toward chastity, and that is the orientation we most care about."

By Laurie Goodstein

September 30, 2005

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/30/national/30catholic.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

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A Catholic Bibliography of GAY Culture

Homosexuality and Catholicism Bibliography:
Section VI LesBiGay Catholics

© Paul Halsall
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/lgbcathbib6.html

A: Relations with the Hierarchy
"3 Bishops Join Opposition to Vatican Policy", Los Angeles Times 10/31/92 ; sec. A p. 24 c. 3ABSTR: Three Roman Catholic bishops have joined more than 1,500 Catholics in signing a statement repudiating a Vatican document that supports legal discrimination against gays and lesbians in some cases.

"Angry reaction to Vatican observations on homosexuals", The Tablet 246:967 (August 1, 1992)

"Archdiocese Opens Door to Gay Group", Chicago Tribune 05/25/89 ; sec. 3C p. 6 c. 3ABSTR: The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago has formally recognized Archdiocesan Gay and Lesbian Outreach-Chicago, a group representing gay Catholics. The Roman Catholic Archdiocese has announced it will extend its services to the group in attempt to make peace with the organization.

"Dignity wins suit", The Christian Century, 107 p1191 December 19-26 1990

"Georgetown does not have to recognize a gay student group", Christianity Today 27 No 18 p49 November 25 1983

"McNeill leaves Jesuits", The Christian Century 103 No 35 p1025 November 19 1986

"Outrage! protests outside Catholic School", The Tablet 246 (Jan 25 1992): 241

"Protest Outside Cathedral", New York Times 12/14/92 ; sec. B p. 2 c. 6ABSTR: About members of Act-Up and other AIDS advocacy groups protested outside New York City's St Patrick's Cathedral on Dec 13, 1992, saying that the Roman Catholic Church has lobbied against gay-tolerance education in schools.

"The Vatican statement on homosexuality", Christianity Today 30 No 18 p48 December 12 1986
"Vatican document on gays is not Christian (editorial)", National Catholic Reporter 28:24 (July 31, 1992)

"Vatican questions laws to protect homosexuals", The Tablet 246:935 (July 25, 1992)

"Vatican strikes at legal protection to protect homosexuals", The Tablet 246:935 (July 25, 1992)

"A Retrospective Look at Gay Rights Coalition of Georgetown Univ. Law School v. Georgetown Univ", George Mason University civil rights law journal, 1:1 (Sprg 1990), 121-

Ackerman, Todd. "Gay group is recognized at CUA", Register 65:1+ Feb 12 1989

Adams, Jane Meredith, "Gay Group Lashes Out at Church Sex Stance", Boston Globe 09/05/89 ; p. 3 c. 1ABSTR: According to a new statement of sexual ethics by Dignity, a national organization of homosexual Catholics, the Roman Catholic teachings on sexuality are not in touch with human experience of heterosexuals or homosexuals.

Anerich, John Paul., "Jesuit-run university just says no to gay group", Register 66:1+ (March 11 1990)

Baldwin, Louis, Pope and the MavericksHow infallible is the pope of Rome? According to Baldwin, many theologians have been troubled by some disconcerting historical data and have found it difficult to reconcile modern-day problems with age-old mandates, and he recounts the experiences of several noted theologians who have questioned papal infallibility.

Berrigan, Daniel, "The Leveling of John McNeill", Commonweal 104 (1977), 778-83On the mistreatment of Fr. John McNeill SJ over his book The Church and the Homosexual.

Black, Chris, "BC creates a panel to focus on gay campus life", Boston Globe 05/05/93 ; p. 29 c. 1ABSTR: Despite the Catholic Church's position that homosexual activity is sinful, Boston College, the third largest Catholic university in the nation, has established a special committee to provide support to gay and lesbian students, faculty and staff.

Boxall, Bettina, "Gay Catholics Urge Clergy to Denounce Letter", Los Angeles Times 08/01/92 ; sec. B p. 2 c. 4ABSTR: Condemning a recent Vatican statement defending discrimination against homosexuals, several gay Catholics called on church members and clergy on Jul 31, 1992 to denounce the document.

Chandler, Russell, "Catholic Bishops Prohibit Masses for Gay, Lesbian Group", Los Angeles Times 06/23/89 ; sec. I p. 3 c. 4ABSTR: Archbishop Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles and 12 other bishops from Southern and Central California have firmly prohibited Roman Catholic priests from celebrating Masses sponsored by Dignity, an organization of gay Catholics.

Clines, Francis X, "Gay and green and the gulf in between". New York Times 03/13/94 ; sec. 1 p. 29 c. 1 ABSTR: Francis X. Clines comments on the attitude of Mildred S. Kennedy, who came to America for the first time in 1988 on an alms-seeking mission to stabilize her integrated public school for Protestant and Catholic youngsters in Belfast Northern Ireland, concerning the celebration of St Patrick's Day by Irish-Americans.

Dillon, Sam, "Liberals cooperating in New York school races", New York Times 04/21/93 ; sec. A p. 1 c. 2ABSTR: In response to the alliance of the Roman Catholic Church, evangelist Pat Robertson and conservative community groups to influence New York City's May 4, 1993 school board elections, gay-rights advocates, liberal clergy and some parents and teachers groups are themselves organizing to fight the conservative agenda. The social-policy battles erupted after the ouster of Schools

Formicola, Jo Renee, "The gays, Georgetown, and the government", in Church polity and American politics; ed by M Segers, 1990 p233-249

Franklin, James L, "Catholic group asks gay panelist's ouster", Boston Globe 06/02/93 ; p. 20 c. 2ABSTR: The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights has called on Gov Weld to dismiss David LaFontaine as chairman of the Governor's Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth because LaFontaine took part in two 1990 demonstrations the group said were marked by "hatred, bigotry and obscenity."

Franklin, James L, "Weld stands by gay panel appointee despite complaints", Boston Globe 06/03/93 ; p. 25 c. 1ABSTR: Massachusetts Gov Weld "has no plans" to fire David LaFontaine as chairman of the Governor's Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth, a Weld spokeswoman said, despite complaints that LaFontaine took part in two 1990 demonstrations that a Catholic group says denied the rights of others.

Fried, Joseph P, "O'Connor says Catholic groups may shun St. Patrick's parade", New York Times 02/16/93 ; sec. B p. 5 c. 1ABSTR: Cardinal John O'Connor of New York City has said that Catholic groups may shun the St Patrick's Day parade if the Irish Lesbian and Gay Organization is allowed to march under its banner.

Fuerbach, Peter, "Gays and the law", National Catholic Reporter 68:1+ August 9 1992
Garcia, Rick, "Poor Response", Chicago Tribune 05/22/91 ; sec. 1 p. 16 c. 6ABSTR: In a letter to the editor, Rick Garcia of the Catholic Advocates for Lesbian & Gay Rights says that the Chicago Human Relations Commission and Mayor Richard Daley's administration should forgo its public relations ploys and concentrate on serious issues, such as AIDS and hate crimes.
Goldman, Ari L, "Brooklyn Bishop Is Installed Amid Pomp and Harmony", New York Times 04/19/90 ; sec. B p. 1 c. 4ABSTR: Thomas Vose Daily was installed Apr 18, 1990 as Roman Catholic Bishop of Brooklyn in a ceremony that avoided controversy. Daily challenged Mario Cuomo and gay-rights advocates in his first press conference in Feb 1990.

Goldman, Ari L, "Catholics Meet on Gay Role in Clergy", New York Times 09/28/89 ; sec. B p. 2 c. 4ABSTR: More than 100 people from Roman Catholic institutions in the New York area gathered at the one-day conference entitled "Our Lesbian and Gay Religious and Clergy" to discuss homosexuality among priests, nuns and religious brothers.

Gramick, Jeannine (ed.), Homosexuality and the Catholic Church, Thomas More Pr 1983 176PContents: Preface, J Gramick. Reflections of a gay Catholic, B McNaught. Growing up lesbian and Catholic, A Borden. New sociological theory on homosexuality, J Gramick. Overcoming the structured evil of male domination and heterosexism, B Zanotti. Homosexuality, celibacy, religious life and ordination, R Nugent. Civil rights in a church of compassion, T Kane. Gay men and women and the vowed life, C Hubbuch. Moral theology and homosexuality, C Curran. Shifting attitudes toward homosexuality K McGuire.

Gramick, Jeannine., "Can gays and lesbians come out to be faithful Catholics?", US Catholic August 1992 57:6-13

Greeley, Andrew, The Catholic Myth: The Behavior and Beliefs of American Catholics, (New York : Collier/Macmillan, 1990)Greeley has been reported issuing homophobic comments about the "Lavendar Culture" in seminaries. Still, this is a very interesting discussion of what American Roman Catholics actually believe, with some discussion of attitudes towards gay people.

Griffin, Jean Latz, "Gays, Women Look to Bernardin for Aid", Chicago Tribune 11/09/92 ; sec. 2C p. 3 c. 5ABSTR: Members of Dignity, one of two organizations for gay and lesbian Catholics in Chicago, will join with several other Catholic women's and social justice groups around the US to hold a candlelight vigil at the home of Cardinal Joseph Bernardin. The prayer vigil will ask Bernardin to repudiate a letter from the Vatican that says homosexuality is a "disorder" and suggests that gay men and lesbians should not be allowed to be teachers or adopt children.

Kane, Theresa, "Civil rights in a church of compassion", In Homosexuality and the Catholic Church; ed by J Gramick, 1983 p121-128

Kenkelen, Bill, "Protesting gay activists up the ante", National Catholic Reporter 26:3-4 Dec 22 1989

Kenkelen, Bill, "San Francisco Archbishop Expels Dignity Chapter from City Church ", National Catholic Reporter Dec 2, 1988; 25:7 p. 21 [Abstract from electonic database]: Nearly every Dignity chapter, a national organization of gay Catholics, including San Francisco and New York chapters, has been expelled. Though Dignity publicly questioned church sexual teachings, they never boldly opposed teachings. Reactions to the expulsion are discussed.

Lueck, Thomas J, "Homosexuals turn mass into silent protest of pastoral letter", New York Times 08/30/93 ; sec. B p. 4 c. 3ABSTR: A group of gay and lesbian protestors demonstrated on Aug 29, 1993 during Mass at St James Cathedral in Brooklyn NY, condemning a pastoral letter by Bishop Thomas V. Daily that opposed laws that would "legitimize homosexual activity."

Lynch, Father Bernard, Priest On TrialA priest from New York discusses his coming out and charges of sexual of misconduct that were brought against him then eventually dropped.

Masters, Kim, "Here Is 'the Church'", Washington Post 08/14/91 ; sec. C p. 1 c. 1ABSTR: The film "Stop the Church," which contains a "pervasive tone of ridicule" of the Roman Catholic Church by AIDS, gay rights and pro-choice activists, is discussed.

McBrien, Richard P., "Church's view of homosexuals needs straightening.", National Catholic Reporter 28:2 (March 13, 1992)

McCarthy, Tim, "Vatican goes public with revised document concerning homosexuality", National Catholic Reporter 28:9 (July 31, 1992)

McClory, Robert, "Bishops Buck Criticism, Attend Gay Symposium in Chicago ", National Catholic Reporter Apr 10, 1992; 28:23 p. 6 [Abstract from electonic database]: Three US bishops attended a symposium in Chicago sponsored by New Ways Ministry, an educational and research organization on homosexuality and the Catholic church. The bishops voiced their support for the gay community.

Neumeister, Larry, "NYC parade can exclude gays, US judge rules", Boston Globe 02/27/93 ; p. 3 c. 1 ABSTR: The Ancient Order of Hibernians, the Roman Catholic group that traditionally sponsors the St Patrick's Day parade, has a right to exclude a gay group from marching and the city of New York cannot interfere, a federal judge ruled.

Newman, Maria, "Mahony Vows Not to Be Intimidated by Gays", Los Angeles Times 12/05/89 ; sec. B p. 1 c. 2ABSTR: The day after four Roman Catholic churches were spattered with red paint by gay activists angry over the church's condemnation of the use of condoms for safe sex, Archbishop Roger M. Mahony said he would not be intimidated by threats or attacks.

Niebuhr, Gustav, "2 Bishops Sign Ad Backing Gay Rights", Washington Post 11/01/92 ; sec. A p. 4 c. 1ABSTR: Two Roman Catholic bishops, Walter F. Sullivan of Richmond VA and Thomas J. Bumbleton, auxiliary bishop of Detroit, signed a statement taking issue with the Vatican on the question of civil rights for homosexuals. The statement will appear as an ad in the Nov 13, 1992 National Catholic Reporter.

Nugent, Robert (ed.), A challenge to love: gay and lesbian Catholics in the Church, (New York: Crossroad, 1983)Contents: Introduction, Bishop Walter F Sullivan. Prejudice, religion, and homosexual people, J Gramick. The Christian body and homosexual maturing, J Zullo and J Whitehead. The homosexual condition and political responsibility, G Baum. Homosexuality, lesbianism, and the future: creative role of the gay community in building a more humane society, J McNeill. Homosexuals: a Christian pastoral response now, M Guinan. Moral methodology: a case study, L Sowle Cahill. An ethic for same-sex relations, M Farley. Point-counterpoint, E Malloy. The morality of homosexual marriage, D Maguire. Lovingly lesbian: toward a feminist theology of friendship, M Hunt. Education: sexual and religious, G Moran. Three passages of maturity, J Whitehead and E Eaton Whitehead.[ The spiritual journey of the homosexual - and just about everybody else, M Fox. Gay Catholics and Eucharistic Communion: theological parameters, B Williams. Gay and Lesbian ministry during marital breakdown and the annulment process, P Thomas. Vocation discernment and the homosexual, M Basil Pennington. Homosexuality and religious life, M Kropinak. Priest, celibate and gay: you are not alone, R Nugent.

Nunley, Jan, "Church silence on gay-bashing deadly", The Witness 73 p12-13,21 November 1990

O'Connell, Paul E. "Gay rights coalition . Georgetown University: failure to recognize a Catholic University's religious liberty", Catholic Lawyer 32:170-84 (no.2, 1988)
Olmstead, Robert, "Catholic gays meet; three bishops present.", Register 68:1+ (April 12, 1992)

Ostling, Richard N., "Gays vs. the Vatican" Time Dec 5, 1988; 132:23 p. 60 [Abstract from electronic database]:The Vatican has targeted the US organization Dignity in its directive that withdraws support from organizations that oppose the Church's teachings on homosexuality. ; Dignity

Poust, Mary Ann; Costello, Gerald M., "Desecration of cathedral outrages New Yorkers.", OSV 78:17 (December 24, 1989)

Rosenstiel, Thomas B, "O'Connor Renews Issue of Bias against Catholicism", Los Angeles Times 04/04/91 ; sec. A p. 5 c. 1ABSTR: John J. O'Connor, the Cardinal of New York, accused the media of exhibiting an anti-Catholic bias in its coverage of attempts to keep gay rights activists out of the city's St Patrick's Day parade. Other analysts have noted that anti-Catholic bias has deep cultural roots in the US.

Rosser, B. R. Simon, Gay Catholics Down Under: Journeys in Sexuality & Spirituality of Gay Men in Australia and New Zealand.It examines how men of Roman Catholic background have come to understand and integrate their homosexuality into daily life.

Sheehan, Pete. "A little bit o' Irish - a lot of controversy", OSV 80 (Feb 23 1992): 4

Soble, Ronald L, "4 Catholic Churces Defaced in AIDS Protest", Los Angeles Times 12/04/89 ; sec. B p. 1 c. 2ABSTR: Gay activists claim they splattered red paint on four Los Angeles Catholic churches to protest city Archbishop Roger M. Mahony's condemnation of the use of condoms to fight the spread of AIDS.

Stammer, Larry B, "Catholics name gay, lesbian to advisory board", Los Angeles Times 01/12/94 ; sec. B p. 1 c. 4ABSTR: The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles said on Jan 11, 1994 that a new advisory board that includes a gay man and a lesbian woman has been appointed to assist the church's outreach to homosexuals. However, the archdiocese made it clear that it still disapproves of sex between unmarried people.

Stankiewicz, Elizabeth, "Activists Hit Vatican Support of Some Bias Against Gays", Boston Globe 07/18/92 ; p. 8 c. 1ABSTR: Gay activists reacted with anger and dismay to the Vatican's declaration that it will support discrimination against gays in certain circumstances, saying the church's position reaffirms stereotypes and ignores gays' basic rights.

Steinfels, Peter, "Vatican Condones Gay-Rights Limits", New York Times 07/18/92 ; sec. A p. 7 c. 1ABSTR: The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has sent a statement to Roman Catholic bishops in the US urging them to scrutinize laws intended to protect homosexuals and to oppose them if they promote public acceptance of homosexual conduct.

Stepp, Laura Sessions, "Vatican Supports Bias Against Gays", Washington Post 07/17/92 ; sec. A p. 1 c. 1ABSTR: The Vatican has declared its support for discrimination against gay people in such areas as public housing, family health benefits and the hiring of teachers, coaches and military personnel. In a Jun 1992 statement to US Catholic bishops, the Vatican described homosexuality as "an objective disorder."

Twomey, Steve, "Gay-Rights Activists Turn Out at Mass", Washington Post 01/07/91 ; sec. B p. 7 c. 4ABSTR: Gay rights activists demonstrated quietly at St Mary's Catholic Church in Washington DC as a follow-up to an altercation at the church at the same mass on Christmas morning.

Wilson, Nancy L., "A gay witness to Pope John Paul II", The Christian Century 104 p845-846 October 7 1987

B: Organizations

"A Better Course", Commonweal Sep 23, 1988; 115:16 p. 485-486

[Abstract from electonic database]: Cardinal Bernadin of Chicago is commended by an editorial for moving sponsorship of the gay mass to a broad based parochial group.

Baum, Gregory ,"Catholic Homosexuals", Commonweal 99 (1974): 147-81, repr. in Kathleen Leopold and Thomas Orians, eds., Theological Pastoral Resources: A Collection of Articles on Homosexuality from a Pastoral Perspective, 6th ed., (Washington DC : Dignity. 1981, repr. 1985), 7-10

Caglieri, Kevin, "Dignity: A Basic Ecclesial Community", Creation, (Sept/Oct 1990), 18-24

Article looking at the nature of Dignity, the lesbian and gay Catholic group, by a former national president of the organization, and a theologian in his own right.

Calendar, A Publication of Dignity New York, "The Cathedral Project: A Special Issue", Vol 14:4, May-Jun 1988

Best published source material on the Dignity/New York campaign against the exclusion of lesbian and gay Catholics by the Archdiocese of New York. Includes statements from the leaders of the protests, and submitted court documents.

"Can Gays and Lesbians Come out to Be Faithful Catholics?", US Catholic Aug 1992; 57:8 p. 6-13
[Abstract from electonic database]: In an interview, Jeannine Gramick discusses how she began working with gay and lesbian Catholics, Catholic church teaching on homosexuality, the needs of gay and lesbian parishioners and homophobia in the Catholic Church.

Davidson, David, "Dignity, Inc.: an alternative experience of Church", New Blackriars (1987) [No?], 192-201

Dignity Speaks to Bishops, n Kathleen Leopold and Thomas Orians, eds., Theological Pastoral Resources: A Collection of Articles on Homosexuality from a Pastoral Perspective, 6th ed., (Washington DC : Dignity. 1981, repr. 1985), 55-56

Text of a document Dignity presented to the US bishops in 1975. pp 57-58, give texts of bishops' report, plus positive resolutions passes by the National Federation of Priest's Councils (March 1974), the National Association of Religiou Brothers (June 1977), the National Coalition of American Nuns (1974), the National Association of Women Religious 9August 1978).

Gogin, Kevin R, Changing images : women and gay men in the Catholic Church, Typescript. Thesis (M. S. T.)--Jesuit School of Theology at Berkeley, 1984.

Grippo, Dan, "Why lesbian and gay Catholics stay Catholic", .U.S. Catholic,. Sep 1 1990 v 55:9, p.18

Even though they may not always be welcome, lesbian and gay Catholics believe their place in the church is worth holding on to

Halloran, Joe, Understanding Homosexual Persons, (Hicksville NY:, Exposition Press, 1979)

By a RC priest, on a years work with Dignity in the SF Bay area.

"Healy Says He Regrets Dignity Ban", National Catholic Reporter Jun 15, 1990; 26:33 p. 7

[Abstract from electonic database]: Jesuit priest Timothy S. Healy is deeply troubled over the memory of having to tell the Georgetown University chapter of Dignity, an organization for homosexuals, that they could no longer hold Mass on campus. Healy feels that the Roman Catholic Church's ban on Dignity was "obscene."

Holton, Robert, "Homosexuals with the courage to be different", OSV 81:21 August 30 1992about the anti-gay "gay group" Courage.

Insight (New York, N.Y. : 1976) New York, Dignity New York, inc. Dignity New York, P.O. Box 1554, FDR Station, New York, NY 10022. 4 v. ill. 29 "A quarterly of gay Catholic opinion."
Jacquet, Louis F., "Courage: a support group for Catholic Homosexuals", Liguorian 77:16-20 May 1989[Courage is actually a group which seeks to deny that Gay Catholics can have moral sexual relationships.]

Johnson, Daniel; Nicosia, Carolyn; Krody, Nancy, "International Dignity convention", Journal of Ecumenical Studies 18 p726-728 Fall 1981

Kenkelen, Bill, "Dignity Proposes New Sexual Ethic ", National Catholic Reporter Sep 8, 1989; 25:40 p. 6

[Abstract from electonic database]: At a recent meeting, Dignity, an organization of gay Catholics, passed a sexual-ethics manifesto. Dignity asserts that gay relationships, including sex, can be morally good.

Kenkelen, Bill, "Dignity Considers Bolder Approach", National Catholic Reporter Sep 15, 1989; 25:41 p. 3

[Abstract from electronic database]:Dignity, a gay Catholic organization that has been increasingly ostracized from Catholic dioceses, is considering taking bolder action. Dignity branches all over the US are considering outing gay clergy who hide their sexual orientation while attacking gay people who do not.

McNaught, Brian, "Gay and Catholic" in Betty Berzon and Robert Leighton, eds, Positively Gay, (Millbrae, CA: Celestial Arts, 1979), 56-64This collection also has articles on Protestantism, Judaism and a host of non-religious issues.

Maher, Donald, A Catholic Parish's Response to Gay and Lesbian Presence: A report on the Gay and Lesbian Ministry of St. Paul the Apostle and the survey of its membership, (New York: the author, 1994)

Miller, Neil, In Search of Gay America: Women and Men in a Time of Change, (New York: The Atlantic Monthly Press, 1989; pb New York: Harper & Row/Perennial)

Miller has four chapters on religion and gays: on a United Methodist minister; on Fr. Bill Dorn, a Dignity priest in Minneapolis ; on More Light Presybyterian churches; and on Washington DC Metropolitan COmmunity Church.

Nugent, Robert, "Courage Curbs Gays", National Catholic Reporter 21 (Han 18, 1985), 10

Nugent, Robert, and Jeannine Grammick, Building Bridges : Gay & Lesbian Reality and the Catholic Church, (Mystic, Conn. : Twenty-Third Publications, c1992.)

Reviews

Lambda Book Report Mar 1992; 3:3 p. 47-48

Levesque, Irma, SIECUS Report Apr 1992; 20:4 p. 22
Primiano, Leonard Norman, "Normative Religion vs. Vernacular Religion: Notes on the Study of Philadelphia's Gay Catholics", Paper presented at American Folklore Society Annual Meeting, Alberquerque New Mexico 23 October 1987.

Dignity/Philadelphia served as a case study of "vernacular religion".

Rashke, R., "Dignity like a Fishbone Lodgeed in the Churchs Throat", National Catholic Reporter (April 6, 1976), 28

Stephens, Michael., Gay Catholics in Britain : the story of Quest, 1973-83, (London : Quest, 1983)

Quest is a British Lesbian and Gay Catholic group which has maintained good relations with the British hierarchy - at the expense of not forthrightly saying "Gay is God". This account of its first ten years is a short, detailed, but adequately told narrative. The biggest crisis was the 1976 Vatican Declaration on Sexual Ethics - until then it seems, activists had thought change would be rather rapid. Micheal Stephens was the founder (?) and major figure in Quest during these years.

Unsworth, Tim, "Gay Catholics at Mass Clinging to Hem of Worn Garments ", National Catholic Reporter Aug 16, 1991; 27:37 p. 8

[Abstract from electonic database]: A mass held for gays and lesbians in a Tudor Gothic church brings 200 Christians who pray to a God who accepts them as they are. Homosexual Catholics who are seeking expression of their beliefs are discussed.

Vidulich, Dorothy, "Gay Group Says 'Outing' Bishops Is out of Bounds ", National Catholic Reporter Aug 14, 1992; 28:36 p. 3

[Abstract from electonic database]: Dignity/USA, the national organization for gay and lesbian Roman Catholics, has challenged recent threats by gays and lesbians to reveal the names of gay Catholic bishops. The threats came in response to a recently publicized Vatican document on homosexuality and civil law that rationalizes church opposition to laws forbidding discrimination based on sexual preference.

Wagner, Glenn, "Integration of one's religion and homosexuality: A weapon against internalized homophobia?" Journal of Homosexuality 1994; 26:4 p. 91-110

[Abstract from electonic database]: A study looks at the relationship between internalized homophobia and the process of integrating one's religious faith and homosexuality by comparing levels of internalized homophobia among male participants of Dignity, an organization of Catholic gay men and lesbians, with a community of gay men with Catholic

Wilson, Nancy L, "A Gay Witness to Pope John Paul II", Christian Century Oct 7, 1987; 104:28 p. 845-846

[Abstract from electonic database]: In an editorial, a member of Dignity International discusses why the Catholic gay-rights group accepted an invitation to attend a recent prayer service in the presence of Pope John Paul II, known for his negative attitude toward homosexuals.

Windsor, Pat, "Dignity, Church Find Ways to Peacefully Coexist ", National Catholic Reporter Aug 16, 1991; 27:37 p. 7-8

[Abstract from electonic database]: All but a handful of US dioceses and archdioceses have expelled Dignity, a national Catholic gay organization, from church buildings. The healing of the rift between the church and Dignity is discussed.

C: Spirituality

Dignity Region V, An Anthology for the Gay and Lesbian Community, (Grand Rapids MI: Dignity Region V, 1985)

Hunt, Mary E., "Valuing the Widow's Mite: The Contributions of Lesbian and Gay People to the Church Throughout the Ages", Empathy 1990 v 2:2, p.70

O'Neil, Thomas, Sex with God, new. ed. (New York: Wexford Press, 1994)

Poems discussing faith, AIDS, gay love and the Catholic Church's condemnations.

Stuart. Elizabeth, "Coming out of the Tomb", Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement, Roman Catholic Caucus Newsletter, (1990)

Stuart. Elizabeth, Daring to Speak Love's Name: A Gay and Lesbian Prayer Book, (London: Hamish Hamilton, 1992)

A collection of prayers and liturgies for gay people, with prayers for celebrating gay relationships, housewarmings, coming-out, partings, healings and death.

Reviews

Boyd, Malcolm, Lambda Book Report Jul 1993; 3:11 p. 35

Woods, Richard, et al., "Towards a Gay Christian Ethic", Insight: A Quarterly of Lesbian/Gay Catholic Opinion 3:2 (spring-Summer 1979), 5-12

Zanotti, Barbara, ed., A Faith of One's Own: Explorations by Catholic Lesbians, (New Ways Ministry?)

D: Biography

Alves, Julio, "Recollections of a Young Catholic Sodomite", Christopher Street Jun 8, 1992; :180 p. 8-9

[Abstract from electonic database]: A gay man who grew up in Portugal discusses being banished from the Catholic Church when he laughed at the parishoners who were kissing a papier-mache likeness of Jesus Christ.

Duffy, Michael, "A Flagship Heels to Starboard", Time Oct 14, 1991; 138:15 p. 82

[Abstract from electonic database]: The appointment of the conservative Andrew Sullivan as the editor of the traditionally liberal "New Republic" is discussed. The outspokenly gay English Catholic conservative is profiled.

"Gay Men and Lesbians Describe Spiritual Journeys", National Catholic Reporter 30:38 (Sept 12, 1994), 7-10.

Accounts by Mary Hunt, Scott Trepania, Howard Warren Jr., Marianne Duddy, Marc S. Blumenthal and Kevin Calegari.

Giovanni, Leo, Gay and Still Catholic: A Journey Home, (1992)

Reviews

Craft, Carolyn, , Library Journal Feb 1, 1992; 117:2 p. 99

Deeley, Mary, Booklist Mar 1, 1992; 88:13 p. 1181

Holtz, Raymond C., Listen to the stories : gay and lesbian Catholics talk about their lives and the church, . (New York : Garland, 1991)

McNaught, Brian., A Disturbed Peace : Selected Writings of an Irish Catholic Homosexual, Washington, DC : Dignity, c1981.

McNaught, Brian., On being gay, (New York : St. Martin's Press, 1988)

Merrett, Jim, "Confessions of a Lapsed Catholic", Advocate: May 9, 1989; :524 p. 48-49

[Abstract from electronic database]:A man recalls a childhood friend's encounter with a priest during confession in which the priest asked questions that elicited candid responses. Alhthough the priest never molested the boy, it was not for a lack of interest. SUBJT: Clergy ; Homosexuality

Stahel, Thomas H, "'I'm here': An interview with Andrew Sullivan", America May 8, 1993; 168:16 p. 5-11

[Abstract from electonic database]: During an interview, Andrew Sullivan, editor of "The New Republic," discusses what it is like to be gay in the Catholic church.

Tucker, Scott, "True confessions", Humanist Sep 1993; 53:5 p. 45-46

[Abstract from electonic database]: A gay activist who was once a member of the Catholic church discusses his experience with the church. Even where gays must differ sharply with religious people, certain tactical alliances are possible.

Walter, Dave, "Battling the Church ", Advocate May 9, 1989; :524 p. 25

[Abstract from electonic database]: A homosexual describes how he came to sever his relationship with the Catholic Church because of the Vatican's homophobia. Religion's inordinate influence over society and individuals is the most serious threat to gay people and others.

Rosser, B. R. Simon., Gay Catholics down under : the journeys in sexuality and spirituality of gay men in Australia and New Zealand, (Westport, Conn. : Praeger, 1992)

Accounts of the lives of lesbian and Gay Catholics in Australia and New Zealand.

Gay Life and Culture, A World History

Edited by Robert Aldrich, this is a thick and heavy 2006 book, 384 pages, lots of pictures, comprehensive, it chronicles the world history of gay and lesbian in Greece and Rome, the Middle Ages, Early Modern Europe until the Present.

The book clearly shows that there are gays in the Middle East and North Africa, and Asia. So whoever says "there are no gays in Arab countries" can't hide it based on this historical book.

.

Walt Witman was a champion for gays.

http://www.amazon.com/Gay-Life-Culture-World-History/dp/0789315114

Depose anti-gay Donohue

We cannot allow William Donohue to rattle on his anti-gay monologues and give him all the floor. We got to unite and depose anti-gays like him and protest the venues where they appear like radios and talk-shows.

Gay Marriage

Won't it be bliss the day we are accepted like "normal" people, with normal hearts and normal families?

Does gay marriage make a difference? or cohabitation is suffice of the love thereof?

http://truthspinners.blogspot.com/2007/10/of-course-marriage-makes-difference-for.html

Gay Men and Our Mothers

Here is an article I saw by accident! today which is so consoling because my mother recently passed away. Ken describes how he reconciled with his dying mother who was disappointed that he was gay. He is a former Jesuit and lives in San Francisco. He is a Zen expert and I think that I will try his methods of meditation.

http://truthspinners.blogspot.com/
Tuesday, May 15, 2007

Gay Men and Our Mothers


There are moments in life that require a few words, and this is one of them. ..

When I was describing mother to a friend, he just said, "That woman was a force of nature." He totally got that she was a very, very strong woman and a central figure in my life. That force of her character was, thankfully, balanced with enormous amounts humor and grace, good taste, refinement and a very sharp mind. But if any one of you ever really believe that she liked it when she lost the rubber in bridge, it had to be some mellowing in her later years that I didn't witness. It is no secret that she and I shared, at times, a rough road together. She was disappointed with the path that I chose in life and, I think, with the path that has been given to me, in this culture, by my sexual orientation. Though I held a grudge about that for a long time, I would like to share an experience that changed all that. During these last very difficult two plus years, when we knew that there would be no recovery, no going home, I knew anything that I really had to say to her had to said then or never said at all.

And so we talked one afternoon at La Posada, very openly and frankly - about everything. It was not an easy conversation for either of us. But as her strength was fading, she said that all she ever wanted was for me to happy. In that moment all I could feel was her constant love for me, and I knew that that had always been true. Even my regrets that I had not always been able to fully express the love that she deserved disappeared. So thank you mother, there are no more grudges. From my side any resentment has evaporated and that's because, in no small measure, you were so generous and so courageous in those last difficult 27 months.

Just a little background, in zen retreats there are only a few activities, meditating, eating, sleeping, and preparing the vegetables, which means lots of peeling potatoes. With this poem I asked all the people with whom I shared those retreats to pray for mother. I now ask that our prayers be added to yours, in gratitude that her suffering is over, and with the prayer and our blessing that she finds peace in the invisible life that is always with us.

When all the others were away at Mass
I was all hers as we peeled potatoes.
They broke the silence, let fall one by one
Like solder weeping off the soldering iron:
Cold comforts set between us, things to share
Gleaming in a bucket of clean water.
And again let fall. Little splashes
From each other's work would bring us to our senses.

Posted by tellall at 3:41 PM


The Mother of Us All and the Gift of Tears
Ken
Sunday, May 13, 2007

I woke up this morning missing my mother who has been dead now for several years. Given the contentious quality of our relationship for most of our 60 years together, I am surprised that oftentimes I find tears in my eyes when I think of her. I still remember phones calls where she slammed down the receiver, our long periods of not speaking, her steely resolve that I was going to get straight somehow, by the force of her will, and marry (being her son, that locked us in absolute stalemate for almost 20 years), her cold punishment for my seemingly uncooperative nature.

Thank you, Ken, for allowing me to post this in my blog. I shall try your Zen meditation ...Charles

WE are men-friends

Welcome! This is a personal conversation blog with men-friends I originally met in Wayne's website. As simple courtesy, I didn't want to use up anymore space in his website (it was only serving my personal quest) so I started this blog.

The purpose of this personal blog is for others to help me become "un-Catholic" and get rid of the baggages of "religion that poisons everything" and become a free loving gay!

The name "You've got a friend" is from James Taylor's song of the same title. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb8koIkoCLs&mode=related&search=

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/james+taylor/youve+got+a+friend_20069226.html


Please feel free to write anything liberating. Together, we shall journey in this world and liberate ourselves and others to love freely and to live in "peace".

I am also interested in meeting good Catholic gays in NYC
and in having a monogamous relationship.

This was Wayne's original post:

Thursday, October 11, 2007
New Book: Youth Say Christian Intolerance of Gays Is a Turn Off
posted by Wayne Besen # 12:45 PM
-->
Majorities of young people in America describe modern-day Christianity as judgmental, hypocritical and anti-gay. What's more, many Christians don't even want to call themselves "Christian" because of the baggage that accompanies the label.

A new book based on research by the California-based research firm The Barna Group found that church attitudes about people in general and gays in particular are driving a negative image of the Christian faith among people ages 16-29.

It is time that moderate Christians disown the Religious Right and tell them to slither back into the cave. Not only is their obnoxious behavior detrimental to gay people, but it also makes Christianity look bigoted and backwards. For every convert these Bible-thumpers win, they turn off 100 people to all religion. Isn't it time for them to repent?

17 Comments:

Benedict XVI nephew is GAY and has a GAY bar in Munich - http://pope-ratz.blogspot.com/ Anyone who'd like to go with me to Munich for holidays, let me know! Benedict XVI and the Opus Dei are the most anti-gay Christians, see the John Paul II Millstone http://www.jp2m.blogspot.com/
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/11/2007 2:50 PM

It's amazing just how spectacularly religion has failed to live up to the standards that it gives lip service to. Even the American Episcopal Church just can't seem to bring itself to stand up with moral force and say, "No, we're not going to reject our gay members under any circumstances, and if that means splitting in two, then so be it." Religion is a failure that has created far more bad than good. It is time for it to take it's place in history's dustbin.
posted by Chris L., at 10/11/2007 3:30 PM

At the very least Wayne the christian right needs to back away from the gay issue in order to keep their evangelizing effort alive, heck the shortfall in the budget of focus on the family should be a wake up call to the organization that maybe demonizing gays is a money loser rather than money maker. Heck I don't expect the christian right to become champions of gay rights overnight but in light of this information I certainly hope they back off and focus on other important things.
posted by judah22, at 10/11/2007 9:13 PM

Chris, you're absolutely right. I'm an avowed atheist and you can't imagine the vile slurs, comments I get from people when they find out. They (mostly socalled christians) tell me that I can't make any moral judgments without a religious belief system in my life. Marx was ahead of his time, it IS the opiate of the people, very insecure, frightened people. Anne Coulter's recent remarks that people should convert to christianity is evidence of the perverse, sick minds that religion fosters and engenders, especially the three major denominations.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 10/12/2007 10:09 AM

It's no surprise that you get "slurs" from religionists when you tell them that you're an atheist. It's a reaction which comes from their deep, nagging insecurities and unrelenting mental dissonance about what they believe. But then again, the weak have always tried to pull down the strong.As for their argument that one can't make moral judgments without religion, one need only look at the actions of religionists to know that such thinking is mere nonsense. Nothing more need be said on such an absurd argument.The fact that they can't simply have their religion without smearing others shows that, on some level, they know they're wrong. But then again, if you were the type to look out your window and think that this all got started due to the actions of a talking snake, perhaps you'd be a little insecure and hostile too.
posted by Chris L., at 10/12/2007 10:21 AM

Robert, NYC, I empathize (and have heard a lot) with what you mean by vile slurs and comments - I am a Catholic gay and my former boyfriend (he moved to another country, I didn't want to leave NY) was a Protestant gay. Imagine what we went through. Benedict calls gays "morally intrinsic evil" while he preside over gay Cardinals and gay Bishops and gay priests. NY Cardinal Egan is gay and have a lawsuit -- see October 22, 2006 of http://jp2m.blogspot.com/ As the book "God is Not Great" says 'Religion poisons everything' .
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/12/2007 3:18 PM

Robert, NYC, I empathize (and have heard a lot) with what you mean by vile slurs and comments - I am a Catholic gay and my former boyfriend (he moved to another country, I didn't want to leave NY) was a Protestant gay. Imagine what we went through. Benedict calls gays "morally intrinsic evil" while he preside over gay Cardinals and gay Bishops and gay priests. NY Cardinal Egan is gay and have a lawsuit -- see October 22, 2006 of http://jp2m.blogspot.com/ As the book "God is Not Great" says 'Religion poisons everything' .
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/12/2007 3:36 PM

Chris and Charles, thank you.

Charles, whatever happened to the Egan lawsuit anyway? Wasn't he outed by a fellow clergyman? I remember reading something in one of the local New York papers about that. I wish we had a Mike Rogers among the clergy who could out all these hypocrites, philanderers and pedophiles at the prelate level, starting with a good house cleaning of the Vatican which I suspect harbors more than anywhere else. I can only imagine what goes on in enclosed orders too.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 10/12/2007 3:53 PM

There are a few REAL Christian churches around. Watch this podcast/video of a great sermon giving powerfully strong support to GLBT people. http://inchatatime.blogspot.com/2007/10/speaking-of-hope.html
posted by Anonymous, at 10/12/2007 10:05 PM

Robert, NYC., the judge who handled the Egan lawsuit has a sister connected with the NY Archidiocese in a land deal and his brother is the president of the Guild of Catholic Lawyers of the Archdiocese of New York...it's now on appeal.

You have a good point about the Vatican harboring all these pedophiles and hypocrites - and the best way to protest is not to buy any religious souvenirs and papal trinkets and stop church donations. (Were you a Catholic before, if I may ask?)

BTW, do you have any favorite spot(s) in NY where you hang out where I could join you sometime? or any suggestions from commentators in Wayne's web is welcome. (You can email me by clicking on my name that will lead you to Blogger)
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/12/2007 11:38 PM

Charles, I was catholic at one time. I use lower case intial cap for "catholic" since I lost respect and belief once my orientation was deemed intrinsically evil by the church. The longer I've lived the less I've believed in a divine entity and for the past five years have come to the realization that I can no longer accept the christian belief system. I'm happier and at peace with myself, more than I have ever been because of it.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 10/13/2007 8:29 AM

Considering all the time, energy and creativity that gay people COULD bring to religious groups that accept them, it's *their* loss Robert.
posted by Anonymous, at 10/13/2007 10:26 AM

Anonymous, thank you.Charles, looks like my earlier statement earlier is coming to fruition. I just learned that a high ranking Vatican monsignor has been suspended after coming out. I'm sure more will follow and the witch hunt will begin from the top down or we'll see more leaving the clergy. Long overdue.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 10/13/2007 2:04 PM

I like Wayne's use of the word "repent" in this article. It's time we turned some of their pet words around on them: Repent, lifestyle, abomination...
posted by Anonymous, at 10/13/2007 2:09 PM

Robert--do you have a link?
posted by Ben in Oakland, at 10/13/2007 3:55 PM

Robert,perhaps you (or anyone) can guide me as to how you became "un-Catholic" and "feel at peace" with it, you said it's been 5 years now? How do you un-do what is part of life? Don't you feel rather ostracized and rejected (and alone without the church?)

When my former boyfriend's father passed away, he had a church funeral and the pastor had some slurs for us. The same thing happened when his mother died. When my father died, he came to my Catholic church and the priest had some slurs for us. When my mother wanted me over for Thanksgiving supper, she could only see me if he came with me. Imagine, the thick atmosphere over dinner.

How do you become un-Catholic? The church is part of us, like our schools; the rites of life are in the church.

But slowly, since the eruption of clergy sex abuse, I've come to believe that the Eucharist is only a "commemoration" and not the "actual flesh of Christ", because if for more than 5,140 priests (not countings other countries)can continually abuse minors BEFORE and AFTER consecrating the body of "GOD" himself, it's impossible that God was in their filthy abusive hands! Unless they are all like Judas who walked and ate with Christ but in the end could sell him for 33 pieces of silver.

AP news on the Vatican monsignor -
http://www.eitb24.com/new/en/B24_70468/life/VATICAN-PRIEST-Vatican-bars-gay-priest-for-anonymous-TV/

His television interview (in Italian) http://www.la7.it/blog/post_dettaglio.asp?idblog=15&id=1065

Thanks, Wayne, for giving us this forum.

So how about we hang out sometimes, anyone?
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/13/2007 7:21 PM

Charles, nyc said...
Robert, Chris L, Ben, Anonymous and everyone, you are all invited to post comments in my new blog http://men-friends.blogspot.com/. I feel guilty using up Wayne's website so I created this new blog for our on-going conversation on these important matters. Waiting for you all! Charles, nyc

Come to http://men-friends.blogspot.com/
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/13/2007 11:17 PM

Ben, hi. If you like, you can email me at robertocucina@earthlink.net and anyone else.

Charles, I just don't feel the need for belief in a deity, least of all the catholic church. It just doesn't interest me any more. No, I do not feel rejected at all, I don't even think about being an outsider, never occurs to me. I just can't see the point in religion at all. I don't need to worry that if I die, I will or won't go to heaven. I can't worry about something that may not exist, and probably doesn't, so what do I care once I'm gone? I've seen no proof of the existence of any divine entity. I have no objection to anyone's belief system, but this one is just not mine. I tend to put my energy into science for answers to questions and reasons I don't understand. Each to his own, live and let live.
posted by Robert, NYC., at 10/14/2007 9:31 AM

Charles-- giving up religion requires that you understand it. "True believer" minus "Atheist" = 1. One religion.

I look at all religions like a particular species of wasp that stings a spider, but paralyzes it only. It then lays its eggs in the spider. The eggs hatch, and the larvae proceeed to eat the still-living spider.

Death is a part of life. we don't need to fear death, though we may not welcome it or like the idea. Carlos Castaneda: "We must always live as if we could see death every time we look over our shoulders." Once you can give up that fear, religion no longer has any relevance.

Your comment about abusive priests is a key to understanding that all religion is just made up. If God sees and knows eveything past, present, and future, then he knows what these priests have done/do/will do. we are told that the priesthood is a gift from God--without that calling, you cannot be a priest. The church has an elaborate process to determine whether one has that gift.

So, either the church's process is bogus, or the calling from God is just made up, or god prefers perverts in the priesthood. Take your pick. In any of these cases, the church's to divine authority must be called into question.

And as Helen bunker Hunt once put it so succinctly, if you start asking questions, where to you stop.
posted by Ben in Oakland, at 10/14/2007 12:02 PM

Charles nyc reply October 14

Richard and Ben, Thanks for your replies in Wayne's website, we'll continue it here because I don't want to monopolize the topic over there. You can post easily in the "comments" and we'll take it from here. Next time, I will reply you in the "comments" section of this blog.

My problem is my parents were very religious. My mom before she passed away (recently) begged me to "convert" and become heterosexual in her dying bed! Her "faith" (like opium) kept her "strong" when she was a widow. I also have met "good priests" who left their countries to become missionaries. Do you see my dilemma? Religion could only be the reason for some rich men to become priests and serve God in another country. (Unless they had homosexual tendencies that they chose to "bury" in the priesthood.

Whenever I brought my mother to Mass, I no longer feel that "divine" presence that they taught us in Catechism, all that magic of the Host turning instantaneously into the flesh and blood of Christ. The thousands of abusive priests prove that God cannot exist in the Mass and the same evil hands that "consecrated" the host.

The Mass is like a Broadway show that people have been addicted to, like opium as you said , and all the "graces" it promises are like the "nice feelings" one come out after watching a movie or a concert. The Devil sure is one hell of a producer and he had a cast of thousands of pedophile priests and John Paul II and Benedict collaborated with him because they kept it under wrap for decades.

But how do we change the huge institutions of churches that condemn us? and let us not forget, most of all, they also influence and control the government policies that affect us, like same-sex marriage, or gay common-law benefits?


Chris L.
I await your replies in the 'comments' section too. I don't want to use up space in Wayne's web for my questions to you. Thanks. Charles

Sometimes, these types of people are so awash in ignorance, so saturated with illogical foolishness on this subject, that I think the best thing to do is to simply ignore them and not focus on them. I am starting to believe that people who say things like, "I disagree with 'the lifestyle'" aren't worth wasting our time on. Of course, the exception is when they try to influence public policy with their idiocy.
posted by Chris L., at 10/17/2007 12:07 PM

Chris L. HOW can we "simply ignore them and not focus on them" when they are the ones in-power who decide our "state of union" and our state of being in government policies (plus their dictum outside-the-church- there is no salvation)?
posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/17/2007 1:07 PM

Robert, two days ago, I faxed William Donohue a letter which told him exactly what I think of him. He was on the radio blaming gay people for the actions of his very own Catholic Church in the pedophilia scandal. He's just another mean-spirited, ignorant religionist with the typical below-average intelligence in tow, a typical Irish Catholic drunk. And as for these crazy Arabs, they're so divorced from reality that it's almost not even worth acknowledging them.
posted by Chris L., at 10/17/2007 10:18 AM

Chris L. can you tell me what you faxed Donohue (in my personal blog http://men-friends.blogspot.com/2007/10/we-are-men-friends.html) I'd like to write him too. posted by Charles, nyc, at 10/17/2007 10:54 AM